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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 303 303 303 something

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like that for the tenth of august twenty

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ordained Richard Saunders here with you

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from Sydney Australia on this week's

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episode we're going to be looking

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remembering considering reviewing going

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over the million dollar challenge at the

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recent amazing meeting in Las Vegas

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where I helped did my bit to put that

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together and i'll be reading my official

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report that i wrote a little while ago

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for the James Randi Educational

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Foundation all about the million-dollar

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challenge testing somebody who said that

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they had mystical energy coming out of

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their hand following that it's a week in

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science from the Royal Institution of

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Australia and then it's evidence please

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with Joe alabaster Joe was at skeptics

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in the pub the other night where I was

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giving a talk about the million-dollar

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challenge and after my talk she was

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asking pub goers what they thought of

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the whole concept of the million dollar

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challenge or in the case of Australia

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our $100,000 challenge amongst other

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people Joe chat stew is the our chief

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investigator for Australian skeptics ian

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bryce and the editor of the skeptic

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magazine tim mendham went around off the

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show it's a grain of salt with a run sir

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give forget more interviews from QED the

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question explore discover conference in

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Manchester I was there last year and the

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year before at QED wow what a fabulous

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convention that was really enjoyed it

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really enjoyed it those I sceptics from

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the Liverpool area in the Manchester

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area make sure know how to put on a good

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convention this week Iran chats to dr.

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Elizabeth pisani about HIV and AIDS and

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her thoughts on the current state of HIV

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and AIDS and you'll appreciate when you

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hear the interview why I'm not saying

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hiv/aids I'm saying HIV and AIDS and

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also her thoughts on circumcision hmm

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there's an interesting one for you a bit

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different that's a grain of salt with

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the runs to give to

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wind up the skeptic zone this week thank

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you to all those people sending in your

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interesting entries to our cosmos

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competition those people in Australia

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Australian listeners you have until the

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night of the 16th for midnight on the

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sixteenth of this month that's saturday

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night to send me via cosmos at skeptic

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zone TV a picture with the theme

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billions and billions how you interpret

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that it's entirely up to you and our

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judges now judge or somebody will have a

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look at all those entries and the winner

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will receive the new cosmos series on

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DVD which I have right here in my shelf

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somewhere what's this Star Wars now

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Superman that produces a hard day's

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night I know I put it up here somewhere

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maybe it's on this side have a look as

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my books James Randi what's this

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conjuring mask of Nostradamus up up here

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maybe Brian brushwood bizarre magick

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could haven't whatever I must really I

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hear it here it is here it is right next

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to adventures in paranormal

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investigation who wrote that John Diggle

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there you go cosmos a spacetime Odyssey

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4-disc set the new serious folks now the

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new series on DVD can be yours if you

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live in Australia and if you into the

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cosmos billions and billions competition

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don't forget send your photograph to

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cosmos at skeptic zone TV and some of

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the entries that are coming in we've put

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up on our our Facebook the skeptics own

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Facebook site which is um not used to

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the extent it should be really but I

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notice our reporter Joe alabaster has

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been attempting to sort of get more

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things happening with that anyway check

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it out and if you want to please enter

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our competition and I'll announce the

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winner next week who will get this

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lovely cosmos disc set but that's all

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for me at the moment

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I'm going to run downstairs I'm going to

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open up the cupboard licorice mmm salty

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licorice Europeans like style Dutch type

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Swedish type salty licorice type

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Norwegian or I think you get the idea

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mmm very nice well I'm doing that I hope

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the amazing meeting Lee annual gathering

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of the James Randi Educational

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Foundation jrf in Las Vegas is amazing

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for a number of reasons I for one find

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it amazing that although a whole year

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goes by from one meeting to the next one

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since concen the venue the south point

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casino and spa one can be forgiven for

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thinking that the last meeting was only

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a couple of weeks ago in the six years

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have been going to the south point it

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has scarcely changed while I just get a

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little older in 2012 and 2013 it was my

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pleasure to assist the jf in organizing

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and staging the preliminary test for the

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million dollar challenge MDC which over

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the years has become the grand finale of

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Tam in 2014 shortly before heading off

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to Las Vegas members of the MDC

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committee bannerchek Jamie and Swiss and

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chip Denman asked if I would once again

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come to the aid of the party with such

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highly regarded people as these acting

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on behalf of James Randi the answer was

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easy the email started flowing my way a

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day or two before my arrival followed by

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Skype meetings with Banacek and new to

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the MDC Krystyn Lambert highly respected

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up-and-coming magician who works with

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the likes of Criss Angel this year d

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claimant was one mr. fee Wong a Chinese

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national living and studying in Boston

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he had already been tested by the New

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England Center for the Advancement of

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paranormal science with seemingly

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positive results this report together

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with letters of recommendation satisfied

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the MDC committee that there was worth

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proceeding with testing this claimant

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mr. Wong's claims in his own words is I

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have some supernatural power that I can

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send out from my right hand and other

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people can simply feel it at a distance

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of about 30 centimeters away Mr Wong

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claims that he can project or transmit a

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power force or energy hitherto unknown

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to science from his right hand into the

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hand of a receptive subject the subject

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will be able to feel this energy as

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warmth movement tingling or some other

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notable sensations in there

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and it has also claimed that this energy

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possibly known as Qigong can be

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transmitted through various materials

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including wood plastic and metal it is

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important to note that this claimed

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ability still works even if the subject

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is unaware of the direct actions of mr.

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Wong on the surface of it and this may

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appear to be a relatively simple test

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experience has shown us that even simple

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claims can be quite a task I arrived at

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the South Point the day before their

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first official tam events before long I

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found myself in the del mar bar the

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unofficial tam hangout spot working on

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the formal million dollar challenge

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document that would not only serve as

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the agreement between the jrf and Mr

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Wong but would also be a step-by-step

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protocol for the test itself this

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document would change many times each

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day as the committee and mr. Wang worked

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together to fine-tune the test the first

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hurdle to overcome was to make sure the

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subjects of the test those who were on

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the receiving end of mr. Wong's powers

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were ultimately unaware of when mr. Wang

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was sending his power at first the idea

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was to set up an aluminium petition on

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the table with the subject on one side

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and mr. Wong on the other there would be

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two holes in the partition through which

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the subject could extend their hands

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coming to rest inside two boxes mr. Wang

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would then work on either the left or

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right hand sending his energy through

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the box without the subject knowing in

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our first meeting with mr. Wang on

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Thursday we realized that he found this

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arrangement unacceptable as he claimed

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the power or energy would travel from

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his right hand through the box into the

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left hand of the subject and keep going

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up the other side into the right box

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bannerchek jamie chip mr. Wang and I all

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walked around the room for some time

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with our hands on our chins voicing

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ideas arguing the merits of each going

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back to the drawing board and so on then

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the idea came up with the screen or

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partition by which time it was agreed

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could be made from cardboard could be

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set at an angle so the energy would miss

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the other hand of the subject as

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it was being projected we also tied for

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a long time with the idea that Mr Wong

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and a placebo claimant ie someone with

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no special powers would approach the

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subject at the same time one working on

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the right hand the other on the left

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these ideas are bounced around the room

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for the next couple of hours as we

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change this and that drew diagrams and

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argued the small points all this goes to

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remind us of how complex and involve

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these preliminary tests can be

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especially when you consider that we

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were also constructing a live

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performance for an audience but the

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overriding consideration during this

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whole process was to ensure that mr.

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Wang was in agreement and comfortable

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with what we were suggesting to him he

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like any other claimant of this stage of

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the planning had the right to veto what

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we put forward I must say we found mr.

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Wang to be very helpful and polite

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throughout and was understanding of what

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we are trying to achieve somewhere along

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the way the idea developed that we only

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use the right hand of the subject and

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mr. Wang and our placebo claimant should

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take it in turns this met with the

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universal agreement as it eliminated

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quite a few problems we also agreed that

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two ping-pong balls one white the other

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black placed in a bag and shaken would

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be used to determine at random who would

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approach the subject first and second by

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now we all needed a rest and it was

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agreed we would meet the next day when

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mr. Wang could start meeting and

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assessing possible subjects for the test

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I headed back to my room and rewrote

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million dollar challenge document with

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the new conditions worked out an hour

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meeting complete with new diagrams

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Friday arrived in town was in full swing

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hundreds of people from all over the

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world with many old friends to meet

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again mr. Wang arrived at the reception

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desk around 12 45 and was escorted to

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the press room which we commandeered for

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the next few hours soon Kristin brought

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in the first group of possible subjects

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from the Las Vegas area all of whom were

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very keen to help in the week before Tam

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Kristin went about finding these

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subjects by placing flies at yoga

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studios Whole Foods mystic bookstores

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psychic reading places crystal dealers

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and even use Craigslist mr.

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had mentioned that people who practice

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meditation etc are more likely to be in

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paths for his energy but Mr Wong was

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also happy for us to use Tam delegates

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if we wanted the next three hours were

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spent with mr. Wang slowly and

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methodically testing each subject we

273
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even went to the trouble of blindfolding

274
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:27,700
and placing industrial headphones on the

275
00:12:31,950 --> 00:12:30,130
subjects to make sure that they and mr.

276
00:12:34,830 --> 00:12:31,960
Wang were comfortable with this extra

277
00:12:37,410 --> 00:12:34,840
layer of security then bannerchek or I

278
00:12:40,140 --> 00:12:37,420
and mr. Wang would ask them if they felt

279
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:40,150
any sensation in their hand when the

280
00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:42,970
energy seemed to be transmitted some

281
00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:45,570
said yes some said they weren't sure

282
00:12:51,810 --> 00:12:49,720
most said no mr. Wang had the final say

283
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:51,820
as to whether an individual was deemed

284
00:12:57,390 --> 00:12:54,130
acceptable and they were asked to return

285
00:12:59,310 --> 00:12:57,400
for the live show noticing that mr.

286
00:13:01,710 --> 00:12:59,320
Wong's right hand was getting very close

287
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:01,720
to the box it was agreed that a line be

288
00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:04,330
drawn to form a six centimeter barrier a

289
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:07,030
great deal of time was used to work out

290
00:13:11,940 --> 00:13:09,310
just how long mr. Wang needed to

291
00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:11,950
concentrate between each subject in

292
00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:13,870
order for him to feel his energy levels

293
00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:16,150
were just about right it was during this

294
00:13:20,430 --> 00:13:17,950
session that it was decided that he

295
00:13:22,650 --> 00:13:20,440
would have exactly one minute to work on

296
00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:22,660
each subject which was more time than he

297
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:25,270
really needed we also had to agree on

298
00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:27,310
how much time should elapse if we were

299
00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:29,560
to use the same subject more than once

300
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:32,230
other details included where to put the

301
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:34,330
curtains who should stand where and do

302
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:37,330
what I videotaped the entire session for

303
00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:39,360
the archives with the permission of mr.

304
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:42,070
11 of the details that change during

305
00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:44,170
this session was that the subject would

306
00:13:49,380 --> 00:13:46,510
face away from the audience instead of

307
00:13:51,390 --> 00:13:49,390
at right angles the stage curtains would

308
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:51,400
also be used to help conceal mr. Wang

309
00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:54,000
and out placebo claimant Jamy Ian Swiss

310
00:13:58,500 --> 00:13:56,560
from the audience a copy of the document

311
00:14:01,140 --> 00:13:58,510
was emailed to mister wong for his

312
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:01,150
records and comments saturday rolled

313
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:02,770
around and once again we found ourselves

314
00:14:06,810 --> 00:14:04,720
in the press room with another group of

315
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:06,820
possible subjects to be assessed by mr.

316
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:09,910
Wang yet more operations to the tests

317
00:14:14,850 --> 00:14:12,130
were made as we learnt more about just

318
00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:14,860
what was needed and who we might be

319
00:14:19,350 --> 00:14:17,710
using the following night Kristin also

320
00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:19,360
took the opportunity to find out more

321
00:14:21,780 --> 00:14:19,870
about

322
00:14:24,390 --> 00:14:21,790
two wrongs background for the benefit of

323
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:24,400
the audience like the day before this

324
00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:26,650
session took some hours and more the

325
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:29,620
protocol was fine tuned by the end of it

326
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:32,560
we only had five subjects with whom mr.

327
00:14:38,250 --> 00:14:35,170
Wong was happy from the two days of

328
00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:38,260
pre-tests more rewrites followed with me

329
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:40,600
making two versions of the testing plan

330
00:14:45,210 --> 00:14:43,570
document one version was to cater for

331
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:45,220
the possibility of using all our five

332
00:14:50,970 --> 00:14:48,730
subjects twice giving us 10 tests the

333
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:50,980
other was a safety in case only three of

334
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:52,690
the subjects turned up on the night in

335
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:55,120
which case we would use them three times

336
00:14:59,820 --> 00:14:58,480
each giving us a total of nine tests as

337
00:15:03,090 --> 00:14:59,830
it turned out it was good to have a plan

338
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:03,100
B finally Sunday the day of the

339
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:05,710
preliminary challenge arrived all the

340
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:06,730
members the million dollar challenge

341
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:09,310
committee were very busy that day with

342
00:15:13,890 --> 00:15:11,770
talks or workshops and it wasn't until

343
00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:13,900
late into the afternoon after the last

344
00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:17,200
ham talk which happened to be mine that

345
00:15:22,019 --> 00:15:19,390
we had access to the main stage to start

346
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,029
constructing the testing table cardboard

347
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:24,160
screen the box and practice moving the

348
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:26,290
curtains a video camera was also

349
00:15:29,850 --> 00:15:27,910
installed at the back of the stage to

350
00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:29,860
capture for the record what would be

351
00:15:34,019 --> 00:15:32,260
hidden from the audience mr. Wang joined

352
00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:34,029
us during this time to inspect the set

353
00:15:39,210 --> 00:15:35,980
up and go over the final protocols as

354
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:39,220
did James Randi who took great care to

355
00:15:43,260 --> 00:15:41,650
examine the stage delegates may be

356
00:15:46,199 --> 00:15:43,270
forgiven if they think they saw a

357
00:15:48,329 --> 00:15:46,209
strange flash with a yellow tie tearing

358
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:48,339
up and down the great hall laptop in

359
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:50,290
hand as I ran to see to last minute

360
00:15:54,630 --> 00:15:52,720
loose ends including finding a printer

361
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:54,640
to make copies of the now many times

362
00:15:59,970 --> 00:15:57,570
rewritten formal document all was ready

363
00:16:03,060 --> 00:15:59,980
however we only had three of the five

364
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:03,070
subjects turn up for the test so Plan B

365
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:05,440
it was we parked them in the service

366
00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:07,660
corridor near the main stage had mr.

367
00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:09,760
Wang wait in the wings let the audience

368
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:13,270
in and the show started bannerchek and

369
00:16:18,090 --> 00:16:15,370
Jamie took to the stage to introduce the

370
00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:18,100
night then ship came out and covered the

371
00:16:22,769 --> 00:16:21,070
stats and calculations for Mr Wong to

372
00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:22,779
pass he would need to score at least

373
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:26,440
eight hits out of nine Kristin gave an

374
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:29,290
overview of mr. Wong and his claim then

375
00:16:33,369 --> 00:16:31,570
I entered the stage and really has it

376
00:16:35,889 --> 00:16:33,379
happened had nothing to say

377
00:16:38,199 --> 00:16:35,899
we then did a demonstration run of the

378
00:16:39,969 --> 00:16:38,209
test with Brian Walker taking the part

379
00:16:42,249 --> 00:16:39,979
of the subject for the benefit of the

380
00:16:45,339 --> 00:16:42,259
audience as they would not be able to

381
00:16:47,019 --> 00:16:45,349
see the vital part of the test maybe the

382
00:16:50,019 --> 00:16:47,029
most important procedure at this point

383
00:16:52,689 --> 00:16:50,029
was to have mr. Wang agree to and sign a

384
00:16:55,149 --> 00:16:52,699
copy of the formal document this made it

385
00:16:57,729 --> 00:16:55,159
clear that we were testing his claimed

386
00:17:01,359 --> 00:16:57,739
ability under conditions to which he

387
00:17:03,609 --> 00:17:01,369
agreed now bannerchek jamie chip and mr.

388
00:17:05,460 --> 00:17:03,619
wang went to the back of the stage while

389
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:05,470
Kristen and I stayed near the front

390
00:17:10,749 --> 00:17:08,089
subject number one was brought from the

391
00:17:12,850 --> 00:17:10,759
corridor and I showed her to her seat in

392
00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:12,860
front of the cardboard screen and box I

393
00:17:16,090 --> 00:17:14,809
placed her hand in the box for a few

394
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:16,100
moments so she could get accustomed to

395
00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:19,610
her arm being at that angle bannerchek

396
00:17:24,189 --> 00:17:21,769
gave the word that mr. Wang was ready

397
00:17:25,659 --> 00:17:24,199
the curtains were drawn I helped the

398
00:17:28,149 --> 00:17:25,669
subject with the blindfold and

399
00:17:30,369 --> 00:17:28,159
headphones and guided her hand once

400
00:17:32,980 --> 00:17:30,379
again into the box behind the curtains

401
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:32,990
and unseen to the audience chip reached

402
00:17:37,539 --> 00:17:35,210
into the bag pulled out one of the

403
00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:37,549
ping-pong balls and trial number one was

404
00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:39,830
underway with mr. Wang or Jamie

405
00:17:44,350 --> 00:17:42,470
approaching the box as I stood there on

406
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:44,360
the stage my mind taking over the

407
00:17:49,389 --> 00:17:46,610
seconds I looked over to Christian and I

408
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:49,399
thought how come she gets a chair the

409
00:17:54,029 --> 00:17:51,679
audience is Everett tam showed great

410
00:17:56,590 --> 00:17:54,039
respect you could hear a pin drop

411
00:17:58,840 --> 00:17:56,600
bannerchek denounced when the time for

412
00:18:00,820 --> 00:17:58,850
session number one was up and I walked

413
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:00,830
over and told the subject a few minutes

414
00:18:05,049 --> 00:18:02,570
later we were ready for session number

415
00:18:06,490 --> 00:18:05,059
two when session number two is over I

416
00:18:08,860 --> 00:18:06,500
removed the blindfold and headphones

417
00:18:10,779 --> 00:18:08,870
from the subject the curtains open

418
00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:10,789
Banacek came around from the back of the

419
00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:13,340
stage and asked the subject did you feel

420
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:15,620
something during the first session the

421
00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:18,110
subject answered yes did you feel

422
00:18:24,399 --> 00:18:20,830
something during the second session no

423
00:18:26,740 --> 00:18:24,409
Kristen wrote 01 on the scoreboard now

424
00:18:29,259 --> 00:18:26,750
chip revealed who went first and second

425
00:18:31,930 --> 00:18:29,269
as it turned out in this case it was

426
00:18:35,769 --> 00:18:31,940
Jamie who had stepped up first so this

427
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:35,779
trial was a fail for Mr Wong the subject

428
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:37,610
was thanked and shown off the stage and

429
00:18:41,499 --> 00:18:39,440
the next subject sent in from the

430
00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:41,509
corridor the same process followed with

431
00:18:45,549 --> 00:18:43,100
resting her hand in the box for a few

432
00:18:46,419 --> 00:18:45,559
moments then placing the blindfold and

433
00:18:49,499 --> 00:18:46,429
headphones

434
00:18:51,669 --> 00:18:49,509
on trial number two session number one

435
00:18:53,769 --> 00:18:51,679
proceeded as normal but at the end

436
00:18:56,259 --> 00:18:53,779
bannerchek instructed me to remove the

437
00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:56,269
blindfold and headphones which were not

438
00:19:01,239 --> 00:18:58,610
originally planned but gave our subject

439
00:19:03,639 --> 00:19:01,249
a slight rest then the gear went back on

440
00:19:06,430 --> 00:19:03,649
for the next session when the time was

441
00:19:08,980 --> 00:19:06,440
up for session number two I remove the

442
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:08,990
blindfold and headphones the curtains

443
00:19:12,399 --> 00:19:10,730
open bannerchek came around from the

444
00:19:14,379 --> 00:19:12,409
back of the stage and asked the subject

445
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:14,389
did you feel something during the first

446
00:19:19,049 --> 00:19:17,570
session the subject answered yes did you

447
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:19,059
feel something during the second session

448
00:19:25,239 --> 00:19:22,369
also yes we had anticipated this

449
00:19:28,450 --> 00:19:25,249
possibility so Banacek then asked in

450
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:28,460
which session did it feel stronger the

451
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:31,970
answer the second session Kristin rota

452
00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:34,369
to on the scoreboard now chip revealed

453
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:37,190
who went first and second as it turned

454
00:19:42,669 --> 00:19:39,440
out in this case it was Mr Wong who had

455
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:42,679
stepped up first so the trial again was

456
00:19:48,129 --> 00:19:45,440
a fail unfortunately this meant the test

457
00:19:49,899 --> 00:19:48,139
overall was considered a fail for Mr

458
00:19:52,419 --> 00:19:49,909
Wong as he needed to score at least

459
00:19:54,850 --> 00:19:52,429
eight out of nine two passed on the

460
00:19:57,369 --> 00:19:54,860
night even though to first up fouls was

461
00:19:58,960 --> 00:19:57,379
always on the cards it was still a

462
00:20:00,820 --> 00:19:58,970
little disappointing in what I

463
00:20:02,889 --> 00:20:00,830
considered to be a sign of his sincerity

464
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:02,899
Mr Wong was happy to answer questions

465
00:20:07,509 --> 00:20:05,360
from the audience I ducked down to have

466
00:20:09,970 --> 00:20:07,519
a word to Randy who wanted us to be sure

467
00:20:12,460 --> 00:20:09,980
that mr. Wong received a warm applause

468
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:12,470
which is exactly what happened as the

469
00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:14,690
crowd filed out some people came up to

470
00:20:19,330 --> 00:20:16,820
question details of the test or to get a

471
00:20:21,940 --> 00:20:19,340
better idea of why we did this or that

472
00:20:24,730 --> 00:20:21,950
one concern raised was that it should

473
00:20:26,769 --> 00:20:24,740
have been me and not Banacek who asked

474
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:26,779
questions of the subjects after each

475
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:29,450
trial to maintain a double-blind aspect

476
00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:31,610
we took the point into consideration as

477
00:20:35,980 --> 00:20:33,830
important should we have progressed to

478
00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:35,990
the full-blown challenge despite mr.

479
00:20:39,580 --> 00:20:37,700
Wong's confidence in his abilities

480
00:20:41,769 --> 00:20:39,590
choosing the subjects for the test

481
00:20:43,989 --> 00:20:41,779
himself taking part in the planning and

482
00:20:45,489 --> 00:20:43,999
agreeing to the conditions members of

483
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:45,499
the million-dollar challenge committee

484
00:20:50,619 --> 00:20:48,320
and the TAM audience remained skeptical

485
00:20:53,109 --> 00:20:50,629
of his claim the energy or power or

486
00:20:54,940 --> 00:20:53,119
force he believes he possesses was

487
00:20:57,519 --> 00:20:54,950
seemingly absent during the preliminary

488
00:20:59,980 --> 00:20:57,529
tests and also failed on most of the

489
00:21:00,700 --> 00:20:59,990
subjects during the pretests in the days

490
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:00,710
before

491
00:21:06,029 --> 00:21:03,679
it is possible that any reported

492
00:21:08,260 --> 00:21:06,039
sensation is more likely to be a

493
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:08,270
psychological effect or simply a

494
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:11,090
consequence of the arm and hand being

495
00:21:17,289 --> 00:21:13,520
held out during the process rather than

496
00:21:18,580 --> 00:21:17,299
a mystical unknown power I would like to

497
00:21:20,889 --> 00:21:18,590
thank the members the million-dollar

498
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:20,899
challenge Committee for once again

499
00:21:26,019 --> 00:21:22,970
allowing me to take part in the event

500
00:21:37,149 --> 00:21:26,029
and especially to mr. womp who had the

501
00:21:39,149 --> 00:21:37,159
courage of his convictions now on

502
00:21:41,860 --> 00:21:39,159
Belfast FM we turn to the personal ads

503
00:21:44,169 --> 00:21:41,870
easygoing and confident skeptic seeks

504
00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:44,179
other critical thinkers for fun laughter

505
00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:46,220
and good times must be willing to apply

506
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:48,289
logic liberally and a good listener

507
00:21:52,330 --> 00:21:49,970
expect something new and interesting

508
00:21:54,250 --> 00:21:52,340
every month come on meet me in Belfast

509
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:54,260
in Northern Ireland if this sounds like

510
00:22:04,060 --> 00:21:56,090
you check out my profile on bail for

511
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:06,620
welcome to a week in science from our

512
00:22:10,580 --> 00:22:08,610
ions bringing you the science you need

513
00:22:12,860 --> 00:22:10,590
to know you've just made your way out of

514
00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:12,870
a really frustrating traffic jam and

515
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:14,460
you're looking around for the reason may

516
00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:16,410
be an accident or roadworks but you

517
00:22:23,860 --> 00:22:19,200
can't see anything so what in the world

518
00:22:28,430 --> 00:22:26,240
mathematicians use different models to

519
00:22:31,580 --> 00:22:28,440
explain these so-called phantom traffic

520
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:31,590
jams one popular model likens traffic to

521
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,080
a flowing liquid and traffic jams to a

522
00:22:39,289 --> 00:22:36,720
shockwave to investigate this Japanese

523
00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:39,299
researchers put 22 cars on a circular

524
00:22:45,289 --> 00:22:41,880
track and asked them to drive around at

525
00:22:47,810 --> 00:22:45,299
a steady 30 km/h for a little while all

526
00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:47,820
goes well but it takes just one car to

527
00:22:52,669 --> 00:22:50,460
slightly change speed to cause problems

528
00:22:55,399 --> 00:22:52,679
making the car behind slow down further

529
00:22:57,620 --> 00:22:55,409
and the next car back to slow down even

530
00:22:59,659 --> 00:22:57,630
more again the cars begin to clump

531
00:23:01,730 --> 00:22:59,669
together and this clumping effect

532
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:01,740
reverberates backwards around the track

533
00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:04,080
like a shockwave even leaving two brief

534
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:06,840
halts at points theoretically if traffic

535
00:23:13,279 --> 00:23:09,090
remains heavy this traveling wave could

536
00:23:15,919 --> 00:23:13,289
just keep going and going forever these

537
00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:15,929
invisible waves of congestion also occur

538
00:23:19,909 --> 00:23:18,120
in real life traffic jams they create a

539
00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:19,919
ripple effect which doesn't go away

540
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:22,529
until all cars return to the same pace

541
00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:24,960
to prevent a jam you should maintain a

542
00:23:29,779 --> 00:23:27,720
steady speed so no changing lanes no

543
00:23:31,970 --> 00:23:29,789
slowing down to look at things and using

544
00:23:34,159 --> 00:23:31,980
your cruise control and you can always

545
00:23:35,779 --> 00:23:34,169
carpool or use public transport to

546
00:23:38,690 --> 00:23:35,789
reduce congestion in the first place

547
00:23:40,639 --> 00:23:38,700
another potential solution is driverless

548
00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,649
cars which are better at keeping a

549
00:23:44,990 --> 00:23:42,600
constant pace and which can wirelessly

550
00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:45,000
communicate with each other to respond

551
00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:46,640
to changing traffic conditions

552
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:49,260
mathematicians help too by improving the

553
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:50,970
algorithms that control our traffic

554
00:23:55,850 --> 00:23:52,890
lights and proved eating when and where

555
00:23:59,110 --> 00:23:55,860
traffic jams will occur and now for fast

556
00:24:02,029 --> 00:23:59,120
facts about pesky traffic

557
00:24:04,129 --> 00:24:02,039
traffic light timings optimize movement

558
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:04,139
for the majority of traffic meaning that

559
00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:06,210
if you're driving against the blue you

560
00:24:10,879 --> 00:24:08,460
could hit a frustrating run of red light

561
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:10,889
traffic psychology studies show that

562
00:24:15,529 --> 00:24:13,289
women cyclists are given more space on

563
00:24:17,629 --> 00:24:15,539
the road than men and you're more likely

564
00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:17,639
to let a car in front of you if you have

565
00:24:22,369 --> 00:24:20,580
passengers using theoretical physics to

566
00:24:26,989 --> 00:24:22,379
understand traffic congestion is

567
00:24:29,269 --> 00:24:26,999
creatively called gemology and in 2010 a

568
00:24:31,820 --> 00:24:29,279
100 kilometer stretch of highway between

569
00:24:33,980 --> 00:24:31,830
Beijing and Tibet came to a standstill

570
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:33,990
for two weeks possibly the greatest

571
00:24:38,869 --> 00:24:36,480
traffic jam in history that's it for

572
00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:38,879
this week in science stuck on the maths

573
00:24:43,789 --> 00:24:41,460
about traffic jams go to the RAS website

574
00:24:46,609 --> 00:24:43,799
where we have some links are I aus

575
00:24:49,249 --> 00:24:46,619
stottle k you follow us on twitter at

576
00:24:50,749 --> 00:24:49,259
our iOS and like us on facebook i'm

577
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:50,759
karen groom and we'll catch you next

578
00:25:01,539 --> 00:24:52,110
week

579
00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:04,789
what we want is some more evidence

580
00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:18,320
okay hello this is Joe alabaster i'm

581
00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:20,670
here at skeptics in the pub in sydney

582
00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:23,550
and we've just had a talk from Richard

583
00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:25,500
Saunders he's been talking about the

584
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:27,180
jdubs million dollar challenge this year

585
00:25:31,549 --> 00:25:29,820
held at tam the preliminary event is

586
00:25:34,610 --> 00:25:31,559
they're talking about how has been

587
00:25:37,460 --> 00:25:34,620
designed and giving us a bit of a

588
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:37,470
rundown on how it went and joining me at

589
00:25:40,970 --> 00:25:38,910
the moment you in the pub we got a

590
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:40,980
little bit of background noise i'm here

591
00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:43,710
with am Bryce hello Ian hello Joe how

592
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:46,260
are you fantastic and yourself excellent

593
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:48,570
did you enjoy the talk oh yes very much

594
00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:51,360
to hear about Richards antics in Las

595
00:25:56,419 --> 00:25:53,820
Vegas what what an owner's duty it is

596
00:25:58,940 --> 00:25:56,429
willing to go there and pursue skeptical

597
00:26:01,100 --> 00:25:58,950
duties for a week fantastic absolutely

598
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:01,110
terrible i hope that i never have to do

599
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:02,250
that sort of thing that would be

600
00:26:06,860 --> 00:26:04,860
dreadful and yes don't get me to go

601
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:06,870
there please Richard my question for

602
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:09,510
today that I'm asking people what do you

603
00:26:12,830 --> 00:26:11,370
think of skeptical challengers what sort

604
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:12,840
of value to the end they have these days

605
00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:14,510
the million dollar challenge or

606
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:17,100
Australian skeptics how much doesn't

607
00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:19,530
time ten thousand nine hundred thousand

608
00:26:23,030 --> 00:26:21,240
hundred thousand dollars I'm selling a

609
00:26:24,260 --> 00:26:23,040
short I'm afraid well I think there are

610
00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:24,270
many benefits one thing they say about

611
00:26:29,870 --> 00:26:27,000
skeptics is there so scientific and

612
00:26:31,340 --> 00:26:29,880
technical and dry and humorless that

613
00:26:33,260 --> 00:26:31,350
enables us to have a bit of fun from

614
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:33,270
time to time once it's all over of

615
00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:34,770
course we've got to conduct the tests in

616
00:26:38,780 --> 00:26:36,990
a serious manner and the other one is

617
00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:38,790
that brings our name before the media

618
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:42,360
whenever whenever we conduct a test and

619
00:26:45,950 --> 00:26:43,679
have some results to put out there

620
00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:45,960
another one connects us with the rich

621
00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:49,590
and famous example that a patron Dick

622
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:51,240
Smith came along to our water dividing

623
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,570
tests long ago in 1989 in his helicopter

624
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:55,679
that's fantastic i think i've actually

625
00:26:59,450 --> 00:26:57,210
seen a video of that is that out on

626
00:27:01,100 --> 00:26:59,460
youtube do you know well this was long

627
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:01,110
before YouTube was invented that however

628
00:27:06,140 --> 00:27:03,600
I'm sure it's been put there since yes I

629
00:27:08,510 --> 00:27:06,150
understand one of the Australian

630
00:27:11,180 --> 00:27:08,520
skeptics sort of provisos that they've

631
00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:11,190
got for their challenge is that a

632
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:14,340
claimant is willing to have everything

633
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:16,530
reported and potentially go to the media

634
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:18,010
is that the case

635
00:27:22,530 --> 00:27:20,410
yes sweet insist on that otherwise

636
00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:22,540
there's no point in it for example if we

637
00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:24,340
tested someone and they lost a masive we

638
00:27:28,380 --> 00:27:25,630
don't want you to publish the result

639
00:27:31,470 --> 00:27:28,390
we've put in a rather large amount of

640
00:27:33,030 --> 00:27:31,480
work and got nowhere our whole idea is

641
00:27:34,650 --> 00:27:33,040
to find out whether there's any truth in

642
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:34,660
the claims of pseudoscience and the

643
00:27:40,410 --> 00:27:38,250
paranormal and so forth and all that

644
00:27:41,670 --> 00:27:40,420
relies on is publishing that's what we

645
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:41,680
do we have a magazine in front of us

646
00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:42,970
called the skeptic which we've been

647
00:27:50,850 --> 00:27:47,110
producing that for 33 years I think it

648
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:50,860
is that's cool so podcasts as you can

649
00:27:57,570 --> 00:27:54,250
tell all sorts of other forums in which

650
00:27:59,250 --> 00:27:57,580
we send out results in is so being able

651
00:28:01,740 --> 00:27:59,260
to publish your test is very important

652
00:28:02,970 --> 00:28:01,750
that's why we always insists beforehand

653
00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:02,980
that they agreed to as publishing the

654
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:04,990
results positive or negative and of

655
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:06,610
course that protects them as well

656
00:28:10,830 --> 00:28:08,770
because if they get a positive result

657
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:10,840
that ensures we can d can't deny it

658
00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:12,490
never happened it's all been filmed and

659
00:28:18,570 --> 00:28:16,150
recorded and made available how much

660
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:18,580
work goes into designing one of these

661
00:28:22,860 --> 00:28:20,650
tests understand you've been involved in

662
00:28:24,390 --> 00:28:22,870
designing a tests for Australian

663
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:24,400
skeptics challenges can you tell me

664
00:28:31,740 --> 00:28:27,600
anything about that yes it's usually

665
00:28:33,390 --> 00:28:31,750
quite a lot of work and part of the

666
00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:33,400
problem is I the biggest problem is

667
00:28:39,030 --> 00:28:36,100
identifying a specific claim which they

668
00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:39,040
can do and which couldn't be done by

669
00:28:44,850 --> 00:28:41,460
other means for example we have many

670
00:28:46,410 --> 00:28:44,860
psychic readers become and so I can talk

671
00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:46,420
to someone and in five minutes I can

672
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:47,950
tell tell you a lot of things about

673
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:49,570
their personality and their future and

674
00:28:55,230 --> 00:28:51,520
their disposition whether been through

675
00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:55,240
in the past we say yes we've got mini's

676
00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:56,620
cold readers of our own who can do the

677
00:29:00,300 --> 00:28:58,960
same thing prove anything what we need

678
00:29:03,330 --> 00:29:00,310
is something that the men in the street

679
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:03,340
could not do and that usually requires

680
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:07,530
something a bit less dramatic than

681
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:09,090
looking them in the face and telling

682
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:10,530
what they can do usually that it

683
00:29:13,820 --> 00:29:12,330
requires the people to be isolated so

684
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:13,830
you can't get clues to the visual nature

685
00:29:18,020 --> 00:29:16,170
and that's why Richards test with them

686
00:29:19,370 --> 00:29:18,030
separated by a screen it's the minimum

687
00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:19,380
you can do a separate them from visual

688
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:22,230
clues so and so getting agreement from

689
00:29:26,060 --> 00:29:23,850
this between the two parties is the most

690
00:29:27,620 --> 00:29:26,070
difficult part by far they say look I

691
00:29:28,940 --> 00:29:27,630
always do it this way why can't you test

692
00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:28,950
that which they will it wouldn't be a

693
00:29:32,780 --> 00:29:30,510
valid test because it's not ruling up

694
00:29:35,150 --> 00:29:32,790
chance alone acting or cold reading

695
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:35,160
skills and that's why it's difficult to

696
00:29:39,290 --> 00:29:37,130
find her something that can be tested

697
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:39,300
people generally willing to collaborate

698
00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:42,570
with you on these tests ninety percent

699
00:29:54,020 --> 00:29:50,780
in Richards talk we found out that the

700
00:29:56,330 --> 00:29:54,030
time was very very cooperative from the

701
00:29:59,150 --> 00:29:56,340
word go it was clear that he believed in

702
00:30:00,410 --> 00:29:59,160
at one hundred percent and would be

703
00:30:03,950 --> 00:30:00,420
happy to go ahead with the test because

704
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:03,960
he believed he was going to win we have

705
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:06,960
had some other challenges who have been

706
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:09,360
unhappy and tried to block us at every

707
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:13,170
turn by changing the protocol and sad to

708
00:30:17,030 --> 00:30:15,360
say I suspect but they knew they were

709
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:17,040
cheating and they found out they had

710
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:18,930
some prospective way of cheating they

711
00:30:26,150 --> 00:30:24,810
believed and hence that's best it was

712
00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:26,160
because they knew they were cheating and

713
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:27,510
they weren't sincere that it didn't go

714
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:29,970
ahead but we do find the general we

715
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:31,200
certainly the ones who were sincere a

716
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:32,970
very cooperative and we're happy to

717
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:34,650
reach an agreement but it can still take

718
00:30:40,370 --> 00:30:37,530
many months 4 weeks to reach have a

719
00:30:42,590 --> 00:30:40,380
great promo code and how many people

720
00:30:45,140 --> 00:30:42,600
that approach you what percentage of

721
00:30:48,850 --> 00:30:45,150
them end up going reaching the point

722
00:30:51,620 --> 00:30:48,860
where they're about to take a test I

723
00:30:53,930 --> 00:30:51,630
would say and these something like one

724
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:53,940
in ten which we reach the point of

725
00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:55,530
proceeding to a test or agreeing to a

726
00:30:59,000 --> 00:30:57,000
protocol so there are many ways they can

727
00:31:00,920 --> 00:30:59,010
drop out well they keep insisting on

728
00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:00,930
impossible conditions yeah but I keep

729
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:04,140
insisting on isn't doesn't contravene

730
00:31:07,070 --> 00:31:05,730
normal science for example reading

731
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:07,080
someone face to face and telling you

732
00:31:11,270 --> 00:31:08,850
about their life doesn't you know when I

733
00:31:12,290 --> 00:31:11,280
when I sat down a list of questions for

734
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:12,300
example

735
00:31:15,530 --> 00:31:14,490
country was this person born in how many

736
00:31:16,970 --> 00:31:15,540
times I've been married how many

737
00:31:19,940 --> 00:31:16,980
children that they got which suburbs

738
00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:19,950
they live in how old are they there are

739
00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:21,480
specific things with the right wrong

740
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:23,670
answer then they quickly drop out and

741
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:25,530
say no I I had more in mind what I

742
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:27,210
normally do just tell you whether

743
00:31:32,030 --> 00:31:28,320
someone is introverted or extroverted

744
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:32,040
and whether they whether I have suffered

745
00:31:35,630 --> 00:31:33,810
a setback in their life where they know

746
00:31:38,180 --> 00:31:35,640
someone who's had a serious disease yeah

747
00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:38,190
all these very big claims that pretty

748
00:31:42,170 --> 00:31:40,710
much can apply to more or less anybody

749
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:42,180
that's right fish with a little bit of

750
00:31:48,770 --> 00:31:44,850
gulper shifting as well it's abandon

751
00:31:50,540 --> 00:31:48,780
statements yes um aside from people who

752
00:31:53,710 --> 00:31:50,550
claim to have psychic powers what other

753
00:31:57,230 --> 00:31:53,720
sorts of applicants have you had well

754
00:32:01,340 --> 00:31:57,240
water divining and metal divining yeah

755
00:32:03,170 --> 00:32:01,350
is it more of a scientific nature so we

756
00:32:05,810 --> 00:32:03,180
call it paranormal rather than psychic

757
00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:05,820
the supernatural so that's one that I

758
00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:08,460
like because in theory you could build a

759
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:11,460
device that looked under the ground and

760
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:12,720
told you what is normally hidden to the

761
00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:14,970
census see sorrow built many

762
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:18,000
magnetometers and ground radars I've

763
00:32:22,610 --> 00:32:20,250
been involved in some of them myself so

764
00:32:24,140 --> 00:32:22,620
we have to rule out the fact that the

765
00:32:26,690 --> 00:32:24,150
person likely using those and that's the

766
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:26,700
sort of thing we can do but if they did

767
00:32:30,140 --> 00:32:28,050
have a means of water dividing using

768
00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:30,150
only a rod yeah and we'd be delighted

769
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:32,100
because it imagine what it would do to

770
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:33,810
the water resources of the world if that

771
00:32:37,580 --> 00:32:35,910
worked I always think it'd be absolutely

772
00:32:40,460 --> 00:32:37,590
fascinating if somebody did actually

773
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:40,470
pass one of these and we yeah get a

774
00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:42,930
chance to have a look at how things may

775
00:32:49,940 --> 00:32:44,670
work that we haven't been aware of until

776
00:32:51,980 --> 00:32:49,950
now but yet one of the most one of the

777
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:51,990
most fast-rising areas is in energy

778
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:54,810
because as our listeners may have

779
00:32:59,420 --> 00:32:57,090
noticed the world is in an energy crisis

780
00:33:02,780 --> 00:32:59,430
our consumption of energy is growing

781
00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:02,790
exponentially it's been a bit dampens

782
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:05,220
by the price of electricity but that's

783
00:33:09,950 --> 00:33:06,930
steadily growing throughout the world

784
00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:09,960
while their resources of coal and the

785
00:33:15,770 --> 00:33:11,760
ability of the atmosphere to absorb the

786
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:15,780
gases is reaching a limit so that means

787
00:33:19,390 --> 00:33:16,890
that there's a lot of money to be made

788
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:19,400
through energy scams and in particular

789
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:21,810
claims for energy saving devices for

790
00:33:25,820 --> 00:33:23,490
example something you plug in the power

791
00:33:28,970 --> 00:33:25,830
point and it perhaps the power used by

792
00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:28,980
your fridge that's something that we can

793
00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:31,350
test and a more dramatic one these

794
00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:32,670
things that you can put in your basement

795
00:33:36,590 --> 00:33:35,220
and they generate electricity power you

796
00:33:38,450 --> 00:33:36,600
ask and you don't even have to put

797
00:33:40,610 --> 00:33:38,460
petrol in them the free energy devices

798
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:40,620
do you come across many of those yes

799
00:33:43,790 --> 00:33:42,330
quite a few years I've got a great

800
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:43,800
collection of articles on that and I've

801
00:33:48,020 --> 00:33:45,810
tested quite a few over the years for

802
00:33:49,820 --> 00:33:48,030
the skeptic magazine I find it quite

803
00:33:51,740 --> 00:33:49,830
fascinating our mother she noticed on

804
00:33:53,150 --> 00:33:51,750
Twitter a lot of people approached dr.

805
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:53,160
Karl pretty much on a daily basis

806
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:55,140
claiming to have free energy devices and

807
00:34:00,350 --> 00:33:58,530
his current approach to this seems to be

808
00:34:02,990 --> 00:34:00,360
to tell them just to go and make them

809
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:03,000
and bring them out and we'll can test

810
00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:05,730
them but before that yeah the claims

811
00:34:11,659 --> 00:34:09,390
it's not so much yes I know it was very

812
00:34:14,180 --> 00:34:11,669
said I've got a friend who's a retired

813
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:14,190
engineer which in fact I am as well and

814
00:34:19,220 --> 00:34:16,800
he's turned his hand to a free energy

815
00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:19,230
device every year or so he invites me to

816
00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:21,240
come and look at his energy debate he

817
00:34:24,919 --> 00:34:22,830
says he'll reveal all to me as long as I

818
00:34:27,590 --> 00:34:24,929
promise not to tell the reveal his

819
00:34:29,450 --> 00:34:27,600
secret he's way past retirement age by

820
00:34:31,940 --> 00:34:29,460
now what's he holding the secret on for

821
00:34:33,350 --> 00:34:31,950
what's he waiting for now well then when

822
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:33,360
I'm jus together in me I'm just look I

823
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:35,010
can't I thought I could have it working

824
00:34:38,060 --> 00:34:36,330
by now but I haven't quite got it

825
00:34:41,330 --> 00:34:38,070
working I'll give you a call in a few

826
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:41,340
days when it's working going on for many

827
00:34:45,230 --> 00:34:43,890
years now so except the setting you want

828
00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:45,240
a little bit

829
00:34:51,020 --> 00:34:47,820
no no no you I think he's having himself

830
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:51,030
on okay oh thank you very much for

831
00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:52,169
joining me and answering some questions

832
00:35:00,320 --> 00:34:57,420
in to talk to you thank you and now i'm

833
00:35:04,250 --> 00:35:00,330
joined by tim mendham who is editor of

834
00:35:05,540 --> 00:35:04,260
the skeptic magazine and Tim what sort

835
00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:05,550
of value do you think that

836
00:35:09,740 --> 00:35:08,220
million-dollar challenges and Australian

837
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:09,750
skeptics hundred thousand dollar

838
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:13,200
challenge have I think that's one of the

839
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:14,930
key issues actually that people don't

840
00:35:19,010 --> 00:35:17,040
people say that they don't think the

841
00:35:20,750 --> 00:35:19,020
skeptics take themselves seriously or

842
00:35:24,770 --> 00:35:20,760
don't take the situation seriously that

843
00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:24,780
they're just knockers etc these things

844
00:35:29,930 --> 00:35:28,470
actually putting up money is a sure sign

845
00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:29,940
that we are serious because their

846
00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:33,030
significant sums of money and people do

847
00:35:35,750 --> 00:35:34,500
know they're out there now some people

848
00:35:38,270 --> 00:35:35,760
say you're never going to give the money

849
00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:38,280
but we actually do have it we have it in

850
00:35:43,130 --> 00:35:40,440
that account well what happens is that

851
00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:43,140
people don't think the test is going to

852
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:44,580
be too hard people who never actually

853
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:46,410
approached us are always saying although

854
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:47,610
I'll never give the money away they'll

855
00:35:52,190 --> 00:35:49,200
create a test which is impossible to

856
00:35:53,780 --> 00:35:52,200
achieve to succeed at but one of the

857
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:53,790
things that we do make sure is as

858
00:35:57,260 --> 00:35:55,440
Richard was talking about in these talk

859
00:35:59,330 --> 00:35:57,270
just earlier on was that we have to make

860
00:36:01,849 --> 00:35:59,340
sure that the the applicant the claimant

861
00:36:03,470 --> 00:36:01,859
understands the test agrees with the

862
00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:03,480
test approved of the test and does so

863
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:06,030
formally once they do that they realize

864
00:36:10,370 --> 00:36:08,130
the test is aboveboard both sides have

865
00:36:13,010 --> 00:36:10,380
to agree have to be mutually agreeable

866
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:13,020
that this test is a fair test without

867
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:15,810
that the test is off so that impacts on

868
00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:17,130
that's as much as it impacts on them

869
00:36:19,820 --> 00:36:18,750
certainly so it's a serious thing the

870
00:36:21,260 --> 00:36:19,830
money is there the money is actually

871
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:21,270
there and we're very happy to test

872
00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:23,910
people in Australia and most people who

873
00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:25,230
come forward to the tests been one of

874
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:27,510
the ones mm-hmm who we all regard is

875
00:36:31,370 --> 00:36:29,250
very genuine people they certainly

876
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:31,380
believe they have the ability they just

877
00:36:34,849 --> 00:36:33,450
under the circumstances under the test

878
00:36:36,590 --> 00:36:34,859
which they agree to the protocols they

879
00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:36,600
just haven't been able to do it we have

880
00:36:40,340 --> 00:36:38,190
psychics we have astrologers we have

881
00:36:42,060 --> 00:36:40,350
clairvoyance as well that what the

882
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:42,070
diviners come up most

883
00:36:47,100 --> 00:36:44,410
and how often do you tend to have people

884
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:47,110
come and apply to do the challenges I'm

885
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:49,510
the only the front line there so people

886
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:52,090
when they claim they I first received

887
00:36:58,140 --> 00:36:54,160
their claim that comes in bio email most

888
00:36:59,490 --> 00:36:58,150
the time and I would get one a week but

889
00:37:00,660 --> 00:36:59,500
from all over the world actually we have

890
00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:00,670
to point out that the test has to be

891
00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:02,470
done in Australia okay for Australian

892
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:03,460
residents we're not going to bring

893
00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:05,050
someone over from overseas so have you

894
00:37:08,220 --> 00:37:06,790
ever had somebody willing to travel over

895
00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:08,230
to Australia different people have said

896
00:37:10,890 --> 00:37:09,400
they're willing to travel over the air

897
00:37:14,450 --> 00:37:10,900
but they've never actually you've never

898
00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:14,460
got them to clearly explain what the

899
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:17,680
talent is okay and not for actually for

900
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:19,690
us to agree to do a test I mean we have

901
00:37:22,860 --> 00:37:20,890
to get that all sort of that before they

902
00:37:24,450 --> 00:37:22,870
made the effort yeah and the expense I

903
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:24,460
mean we point out that if they won the

904
00:37:27,390 --> 00:37:25,450
hundred thousand dollars that would

905
00:37:28,770 --> 00:37:27,400
happily pay for their expenses certainly

906
00:37:31,620 --> 00:37:28,780
in coming here but we don't want people

907
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:31,630
to do it if it's a fairly sort of dodgy

908
00:37:35,370 --> 00:37:33,250
claim and you're not quite frankly most

909
00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:35,380
of the claims I get in a so vague yeah

910
00:37:41,610 --> 00:37:38,380
and so easily I some of them I can I can

911
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:41,620
explain after a short email okay that

912
00:37:45,060 --> 00:37:43,570
this has been done before we've seen

913
00:37:47,550 --> 00:37:45,070
this before that the method you're

914
00:37:49,140 --> 00:37:47,560
talking about has certain floors look at

915
00:37:50,940 --> 00:37:49,150
this side baked claims that you've been

916
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:50,950
getting all sorts of things are the

917
00:37:55,530 --> 00:37:53,920
recently I had one who can move an

918
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:55,540
object like a little propeller under a

919
00:37:59,700 --> 00:37:58,450
glass dome yeah right and you point out

920
00:38:01,080 --> 00:37:59,710
that there's all sorts of things that

921
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:01,090
you actually can influence that sort of

922
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:02,890
thing this year that yeah I'm not

923
00:38:07,230 --> 00:38:05,110
touching it but you know there's also

924
00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:07,240
thinking ab is a sealed down again

925
00:38:10,740 --> 00:38:08,740
urging something or this sort of thing

926
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:10,750
that various things yeah i mean the

927
00:38:15,150 --> 00:38:12,730
tests have to be have to be very clearly

928
00:38:17,460 --> 00:38:15,160
claimed and the protocols have to be so

929
00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:17,470
over there but that's not the fun not

930
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:18,910
the fun for us is actually figuring out

931
00:38:22,260 --> 00:38:20,170
what's a good test of these things when

932
00:38:25,390 --> 00:38:22,270
the claim is not very clear

933
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:25,400
so people say what's your claim say

934
00:38:28,510 --> 00:38:27,110
clearly what do you get out of it this

935
00:38:29,650 --> 00:38:28,520
one that Richard spoke about the guy has

936
00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:29,660
energy but I'm not quite sure what he

937
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:31,760
does really energy yeah what is energy

938
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:34,490
using bad energy the energy didn't

939
00:38:39,070 --> 00:38:37,520
really have a specific name or somewhere

940
00:38:41,470 --> 00:38:39,080
that it came from or a purpose either

941
00:38:42,730 --> 00:38:41,480
but I hope it was enough to test I have

942
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:42,740
been people who were very big vague

943
00:38:46,330 --> 00:38:44,090
about they claimed a very insistent on

944
00:38:47,710 --> 00:38:46,340
getting the money ah I had one person

945
00:38:49,870 --> 00:38:47,720
who family up a couple of times it was

946
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:49,880
incredibly abusive mm-hmm I mean

947
00:38:52,780 --> 00:38:51,170
probably the most abusive ankles have

948
00:38:54,610 --> 00:38:52,790
ever had in my life how's it off sound

949
00:38:56,290 --> 00:38:54,620
off very nice very polite yeah within

950
00:38:58,690 --> 00:38:56,300
about 30 seconds was calling me every

951
00:39:00,130 --> 00:38:58,700
name under the Sun that had four letters

952
00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:00,140
in and everything I said hang on come

953
00:39:04,030 --> 00:39:01,670
down come down I hope you don't expect a

954
00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:04,040
carrot challenge this way he needed the

955
00:39:08,890 --> 00:39:06,470
money okay and there he was desperate

956
00:39:11,530 --> 00:39:08,900
together yeah he yeah he quickly got off

957
00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:11,540
on the wrong foot Gerald oh yeah but

958
00:39:15,310 --> 00:39:13,430
generally do you find people are polite

959
00:39:17,260 --> 00:39:15,320
yes scare most murmurs are very good

960
00:39:19,870 --> 00:39:17,270
mostly firmly believe in their talent

961
00:39:21,010 --> 00:39:19,880
and I and I mean we're happy to test

962
00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:21,020
them as long as we can get a good client

963
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:23,540
a clear client that's wonderful thank

964
00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:25,370
you very much for talking with me to my

965
00:39:31,990 --> 00:39:28,910
pleasure and now i'm joined by Ray Ray

966
00:39:33,580 --> 00:39:32,000
has traveled even further than I have to

967
00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:33,590
come to skeptics in the pub this evening

968
00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:36,680
where are you from right Ralston Ralston

969
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:39,470
so that's inland from katoomba one and a

970
00:39:45,510 --> 00:39:42,650
half hours yes goodness may have you

971
00:39:48,190 --> 00:39:45,520
enjoyed your night so far yes very much

972
00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:48,200
expertly talk by Richard that's very

973
00:39:52,900 --> 00:39:51,110
good to hear i'm wondering regarding the

974
00:39:55,630 --> 00:39:52,910
million-dollar challenge and also the

975
00:39:57,610 --> 00:39:55,640
australian skeptics $100,000 challenge

976
00:39:59,620 --> 00:39:57,620
what sort of value do you think that

977
00:40:03,490 --> 00:39:59,630
these things have these days huge

978
00:40:05,050 --> 00:40:03,500
amounts because some in science they get

979
00:40:08,170 --> 00:40:05,060
put up before scientists and

980
00:40:11,089 --> 00:40:08,180
peer-reviewed and such and knock down if

981
00:40:13,870 --> 00:40:11,099
someone says that i can

982
00:40:16,370 --> 00:40:13,880
lift Nash tray or whatever it might be

983
00:40:18,769 --> 00:40:16,380
you can reply to them well that's

984
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:18,779
excellent I know the perfect challenge

985
00:40:23,749 --> 00:40:22,170
for you and then send them off to this

986
00:40:26,029 --> 00:40:23,759
I've done that to a couple of people

987
00:40:29,299 --> 00:40:26,039
ought not people who can claim what they

988
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:29,309
can do but people who said I know a

989
00:40:34,609 --> 00:40:32,160
person that can do this that's a whole

990
00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:34,619
excellent there's a challenge out there

991
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:37,049
for them so it's something to enter into

992
00:40:43,099 --> 00:40:39,930
conversation to sort of say to people as

993
00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:43,109
a response to an interesting plan well

994
00:40:47,479 --> 00:40:45,569
you can do this as opposed to just to

995
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:47,489
humoring them on their claim or asking

996
00:40:52,099 --> 00:40:48,960
them more about it or discussing it it's

997
00:40:55,130 --> 00:40:52,109
a by version perhaps to tell people that

998
00:40:58,999 --> 00:40:55,140
they can go to the skeptics yes but it's

999
00:41:00,769 --> 00:40:59,009
also saying that if these people can do

1000
00:41:03,380 --> 00:41:00,779
what they claim they can do they can

1001
00:41:06,289 --> 00:41:03,390
actually make money out of it ah and be

1002
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:06,299
proven or disproven in case may be and

1003
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:08,640
the good thing is skeptics aren't out to

1004
00:41:15,319 --> 00:41:12,720
disprove their out to actually try and

1005
00:41:16,519 --> 00:41:15,329
help them prove their claim that's

1006
00:41:19,489 --> 00:41:16,529
certainly I mean I think there's a

1007
00:41:22,009 --> 00:41:19,499
general sense that if somebody's claim

1008
00:41:24,620 --> 00:41:22,019
was proven to be true it would be

1009
00:41:27,229 --> 00:41:24,630
fascinating it wouldn't be a defeat for

1010
00:41:29,299 --> 00:41:27,239
the skeptics to be what do you think it

1011
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:29,309
would turn the world upside down perhaps

1012
00:41:34,249 --> 00:41:30,930
literally depending on what that Bang

1013
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:34,259
was yes thank you very much right no

1014
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:37,890
worries and now i'm sitting here with

1015
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:41,130
Eric hello Eric hey how are you I'm good

1016
00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:43,650
how are you yeah excellent I understand

1017
00:41:49,339 --> 00:41:46,140
you're actually visiting from America at

1018
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:49,349
the moment yes I'm here attending a the

1019
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:51,710
Uni working on a master's degree walking

1020
00:41:57,010 --> 00:41:53,530
masters can ask what you're studying

1021
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:57,020
coaching psychology Oh psychology is so

1022
00:42:00,400 --> 00:41:58,640
you might have something to say about

1023
00:42:03,579 --> 00:42:00,410
some of the million-dollar challenges

1024
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:03,589
here I'm actually asking people today

1025
00:42:08,140 --> 00:42:06,290
what sort of value do you think that the

1026
00:42:09,790 --> 00:42:08,150
JFS million-dollar challenge and the

1027
00:42:12,370 --> 00:42:09,800
Australian skeptics hundred thousand

1028
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:12,380
dollar challenge have I think it

1029
00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:13,970
provides a lot of value in the sense

1030
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:17,030
that you look at certain claims to

1031
00:42:21,180 --> 00:42:18,530
understand whether they provide some

1032
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:21,190
efficacy or some true mahila clang and

1033
00:42:27,130 --> 00:42:23,839
that it can help individuals in the

1034
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:27,140
general public sort of weed out some of

1035
00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:29,750
these claims that are not true yeah and

1036
00:42:35,260 --> 00:42:32,089
hopefully stop some of the money that's

1037
00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:35,270
been spent been so it can publicize some

1038
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:37,070
of these claims that get made and

1039
00:42:41,230 --> 00:42:39,770
actually publicize them rather than the

1040
00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:41,240
claimants talking about them in the

1041
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:43,670
media we're getting a bit of a more

1042
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:46,910
skeptical view and a bit of a testing

1043
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:50,210
going on there excellent how are you in

1044
00:42:54,820 --> 00:42:53,089
Australia for um I'll be here to

1045
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:54,830
December only been here for a few months

1046
00:42:59,770 --> 00:42:57,650
yeah so only if you much more more left

1047
00:43:01,200 --> 00:42:59,780
to go well we're here every month if

1048
00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:01,210
you're interested in joining us again

1049
00:43:05,950 --> 00:43:03,369
yeah I'm definitely can see you cover

1050
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:05,960
fantastic thank you very much tific

1051
00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:09,050
bye-bye now i'm here with Natalie

1052
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:11,150
Natalie what do you think is the value

1053
00:43:15,310 --> 00:43:13,310
of the j refs million-dollar challenge

1054
00:43:16,839 --> 00:43:15,320
the australian skeptics hundred thousand

1055
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:16,849
dollar challenge all the sceptical

1056
00:43:20,510 --> 00:43:18,450
challenges

1057
00:43:22,540 --> 00:43:20,520
well the value for me is when I'm having

1058
00:43:25,940 --> 00:43:22,550
conversations of people who have

1059
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:25,950
alternative beliefs and such um I don't

1060
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:28,050
have the scientific knowledge to be able

1061
00:43:33,230 --> 00:43:30,810
to argue with them and so much but it's

1062
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:33,240
great to say when they're I'm confident

1063
00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:35,910
in their own beliefs and they're adamant

1064
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:38,609
that they're true and such and I talk to

1065
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:40,770
them about this challenge and they said

1066
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:42,570
you know it's available let's say we

1067
00:43:46,190 --> 00:43:44,310
don't need the right now so yes but you

1068
00:43:48,050 --> 00:43:46,200
can use the money to donate to charity

1069
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:48,060
or whatever you like but if you really

1070
00:43:51,859 --> 00:43:50,130
adamant that in your beliefs and you

1071
00:43:53,990 --> 00:43:51,869
want to prove it this is a way to do it

1072
00:43:56,599 --> 00:43:54,000
because its peer reviewed and it's done

1073
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:56,609
in such a way do you find many of these

1074
00:43:59,690 --> 00:43:58,170
people do you think they want to be

1075
00:44:01,609 --> 00:43:59,700
tested or they just want to make their

1076
00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:01,619
claim without really having it checked

1077
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:05,550
on I don't believe they have ever taken

1078
00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:08,400
it up about the challenge of course or

1079
00:44:14,569 --> 00:44:10,260
they haven't even looked it up but it's

1080
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:14,579
effective oh it's easy to just say it's

1081
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:17,609
there yeah give them the option and it

1082
00:44:21,050 --> 00:44:19,410
stops the arguments sometimes you

1083
00:44:22,730 --> 00:44:21,060
understand or not I'll give it people

1084
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:22,740
you can you can go round and round in

1085
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:25,200
exactly it's wonderful to be able to

1086
00:44:29,450 --> 00:44:27,210
refer people on to this circuit and the

1087
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:29,460
onus is on them to prove themselves not

1088
00:44:35,809 --> 00:44:32,010
to me due to have to you know Basham

1089
00:44:37,309 --> 00:44:35,819
against it also and this is the fact ya

1090
00:44:40,819 --> 00:44:37,319
know that's very good thank you very

1091
00:44:43,460 --> 00:44:40,829
much earlier amazing and now I'm here

1092
00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:43,470
with Jason Brown who have been speaking

1093
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:45,240
to online for quite a long while and I'm

1094
00:44:48,950 --> 00:44:46,890
meeting for the first time this evening

1095
00:44:50,660 --> 00:44:48,960
at Sydney skeptics in the pub good to

1096
00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:50,670
meet you haha Joe it's nice to meet you

1097
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:53,550
here fantastic I'm asking people today

1098
00:44:57,890 --> 00:44:56,400
what value do you think the J refs

1099
00:44:59,480 --> 00:44:57,900
million dollar challenge and the

1100
00:45:01,280 --> 00:44:59,490
Australian skeptics hundred thousand

1101
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:01,290
dollar challenge and all the skeptical

1102
00:45:05,930 --> 00:45:04,050
challengers have well there's a thought

1103
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:05,940
I don't want everyone else has said but

1104
00:45:14,690 --> 00:45:08,160
I think

1105
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:14,700
we've got come on bring it on ah ok so a

1106
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:17,930
bit of bravado bit of bravado convert

1107
00:45:23,660 --> 00:45:20,400
excellent word I think that's what it is

1108
00:45:28,250 --> 00:45:23,670
I think it's like hey look science over

1109
00:45:29,809 --> 00:45:28,260
here yeah bring your leg up yeah yeah no

1110
00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:29,819
that's that's a different perspective

1111
00:45:35,359 --> 00:45:32,609
actually that's very interesting I think

1112
00:45:36,890 --> 00:45:35,369
we haven't had that yet oh good thank

1113
00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:36,900
you I like having a pittance it no one

1114
00:45:41,630 --> 00:45:39,390
else's job I'm one of them oh very

1115
00:46:03,120 --> 00:45:41,640
unique sleuth snowflake and I thank you

1116
00:46:07,419 --> 00:46:05,919
are you enjoying the skeptics on podcast

1117
00:46:09,849 --> 00:46:07,429
and wondering where you can find more

1118
00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:09,859
skeptical information skeptics on the

1119
00:46:13,509 --> 00:46:11,599
net is an online directory for

1120
00:46:15,579 --> 00:46:13,519
everything skeptical it features

1121
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:15,589
listings for skeptical podcasts blogs

1122
00:46:20,799 --> 00:46:18,650
people local groups and more it also

1123
00:46:22,390 --> 00:46:20,809
includes the sotn blog where people in

1124
00:46:24,099 --> 00:46:22,400
the know right introductions to their

1125
00:46:42,249 --> 00:46:24,109
favorite skeptical and pseudo scientific

1126
00:46:52,579 --> 00:46:44,829
it'll take this with a grain of salt

1127
00:46:54,769 --> 00:46:52,589
he's around ticket I'm here with dr.

1128
00:46:57,380 --> 00:46:54,779
Elizabeth Bassani who's an

1129
00:47:00,049 --> 00:46:57,390
epidemiologist and she gave a talk this

1130
00:47:03,219 --> 00:47:00,059
morning about about AIDS in particular

1131
00:47:06,170 --> 00:47:03,229
HIV and AIDS amongst other things

1132
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:06,180
Elizabeth can you give us a bit of a and

1133
00:47:09,410 --> 00:47:07,650
all of you of what we stuff was it your

1134
00:47:11,059 --> 00:47:09,420
talk was about well I'm interested that

1135
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:11,069
you said that I gave a talk about HIV

1136
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:13,920
and AIDS and I'm glad that you said that

1137
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:16,130
because many people still use the term

1138
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:20,249
hiv/aids with an implied hyphen maybe

1139
00:47:24,380 --> 00:47:22,170
between the two but seeing the two as

1140
00:47:25,939 --> 00:47:24,390
really one epidemic and I guess the

1141
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:25,949
point that I was trying to make this

1142
00:47:31,039 --> 00:47:27,920
morning was that these are now two

1143
00:47:34,729 --> 00:47:31,049
completely separate epidemics and the

1144
00:47:37,699 --> 00:47:34,739
AIDS epidemic is essentially if not

1145
00:47:41,029 --> 00:47:37,709
beaten quite yet definitely on the wane

1146
00:47:43,999 --> 00:47:41,039
the HIV epidemic on the other hand is

1147
00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:44,009
growing and our failure to recognize the

1148
00:47:48,829 --> 00:47:46,319
difference between those two things is

1149
00:47:51,620 --> 00:47:48,839
one of the things that is making it

1150
00:47:54,589 --> 00:47:51,630
difficult for us to actually address HIV

1151
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,599
effectively obviously we have in some

1152
00:47:58,759 --> 00:47:56,640
solutions now the entry antiretroviral

1153
00:48:02,059 --> 00:47:58,769
drugs that help with fur controlling

1154
00:48:04,670 --> 00:48:02,069
AIDS why is why are we not able to

1155
00:48:08,359 --> 00:48:04,680
control HIV in the same way well because

1156
00:48:10,459 --> 00:48:08,369
HIV has become completely invisible HIV

1157
00:48:12,199 --> 00:48:10,469
is invisible it only becomes visible

1158
00:48:14,089 --> 00:48:12,209
when it progresses to AIDS now that

1159
00:48:16,219 --> 00:48:14,099
we've got effective treatment very few

1160
00:48:19,749 --> 00:48:16,229
people are progressing to AIDS in any

1161
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:19,759
visible way and what that means is that

1162
00:48:26,299 --> 00:48:23,910
no one is walking into a bar with their

1163
00:48:28,699 --> 00:48:26,309
face covered in kaposi sarcoma getting

1164
00:48:30,799 --> 00:48:28,709
thinner and thinner every week no one is

1165
00:48:33,979 --> 00:48:30,809
spending as I did when I was in my teens

1166
00:48:36,229 --> 00:48:33,989
their weekends at funerals of friends

1167
00:48:40,189 --> 00:48:36,239
weekend after weekend after weekend

1168
00:48:44,140 --> 00:48:40,199
there is no visible face to HIV and so

1169
00:48:46,329 --> 00:48:44,150
people are not a as aware of it and

1170
00:48:49,210 --> 00:48:46,339
be those that are aware of it aren't as

1171
00:48:51,519 --> 00:48:49,220
frightened of it now I would say that

1172
00:48:53,289 --> 00:48:51,529
that's probably a good thing you know

1173
00:48:55,390 --> 00:48:53,299
there's a reason for them not to be as

1174
00:49:00,640 --> 00:48:55,400
frightened of it because it's not as

1175
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:00,650
scary so it's a pill a day it's a bit of

1176
00:49:04,180 --> 00:49:02,450
a pain because you're going to have to

1177
00:49:06,609 --> 00:49:04,190
have that conversation with anyone you

1178
00:49:09,339 --> 00:49:06,619
sleep with well you're probably going to

1179
00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:09,349
have to have that conversation by the

1180
00:49:15,039 --> 00:49:12,200
way something you should know I'm

1181
00:49:19,180 --> 00:49:15,049
infected but more and more people are

1182
00:49:21,130 --> 00:49:19,190
not even having that conversation what

1183
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:21,140
that means is that transmission is

1184
00:49:28,660 --> 00:49:24,890
continuing because the private cost of

1185
00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:28,670
being infected is actually very low it's

1186
00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:30,559
taking a pill every day essentially now

1187
00:49:33,940 --> 00:49:32,089
that's something that I've done for 30

1188
00:49:36,010 --> 00:49:33,950
years I've taken a pill every day so

1189
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:36,020
that I can have as much sex as I want

1190
00:49:41,109 --> 00:49:38,089
without suffering the appalling

1191
00:49:43,990 --> 00:49:41,119
consequences of promiscuity among them

1192
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:44,000
pregnancy so I've taken a pill every day

1193
00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:47,930
to avoid that perfectly happily and I

1194
00:49:53,769 --> 00:49:51,529
think that it's a it's a behavior that

1195
00:49:58,269 --> 00:49:53,779
many people are perfectly happy to live

1196
00:50:03,220 --> 00:49:58,279
with the problem is that the public cost

1197
00:50:06,490 --> 00:50:03,230
of HIV is still very very high so people

1198
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:06,500
are on expensive medications for life

1199
00:50:15,809 --> 00:50:12,160
and the risk of developing mutations and

1200
00:50:18,430 --> 00:50:15,819
developing non treatable forms of HIV

1201
00:50:20,319 --> 00:50:18,440
increase with the number of people who

1202
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:20,329
are infected in the population and are

1203
00:50:24,279 --> 00:50:22,130
still sexually active and transmitting

1204
00:50:27,490 --> 00:50:24,289
the virus so the public cost is very

1205
00:50:29,980 --> 00:50:27,500
high but people don't make decisions in

1206
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:29,990
their sex lives or in their injecting

1207
00:50:35,260 --> 00:50:32,510
lives about things that are a cost to

1208
00:50:36,279 --> 00:50:35,270
the taxpayer they only make decisions

1209
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:36,289
about things that are a cost to

1210
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:40,130
themselves but there was a time from the

1211
00:50:44,859 --> 00:50:42,710
late 80s till the mid 90s where

1212
00:50:46,539 --> 00:50:44,869
particularly in gay communities in the

1213
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:46,549
Australian case but also among drug

1214
00:50:50,859 --> 00:50:48,710
injectors people were exceptionally

1215
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:50,869
aware of the risk of AIDS and actually

1216
00:50:56,180 --> 00:50:53,210
were changing their behavior quite a bit

1217
00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:56,190
because of that so condom use rose to

1218
00:51:00,770 --> 00:50:58,530
really remarkably high levels and it's

1219
00:51:02,329 --> 00:51:00,780
now sunk right back down again so do you

1220
00:51:04,130 --> 00:51:02,339
find that the younger generation are

1221
00:51:06,559 --> 00:51:04,140
less aware of the risk of AIDS or the

1222
00:51:08,870 --> 00:51:06,569
less conscious of it perhaps well the

1223
00:51:11,329 --> 00:51:08,880
point is there is no risk of AIDS for

1224
00:51:12,290 --> 00:51:11,339
them there's a risk of acquiring HIV but

1225
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:12,300
they're not going to get AIDS because

1226
00:51:16,460 --> 00:51:14,130
they'll get treatment so AIDS has

1227
00:51:20,839 --> 00:51:16,470
disappeared so are they less aware of

1228
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:20,849
the risk of HIV I think yes because are

1229
00:51:25,130 --> 00:51:22,800
they less aware of it I don't know do

1230
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:25,140
they care less about it yes because

1231
00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:27,119
there is now no longer or really any

1232
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:29,310
practical risk of AIDS or you know end

1233
00:51:38,180 --> 00:51:33,930
of a of a protracted ugly and very

1234
00:51:40,339 --> 00:51:38,190
painful death in their early adult ears

1235
00:51:44,359 --> 00:51:40,349
which is what used to happen yeah the

1236
00:51:45,530 --> 00:51:44,369
Gremory Reapers it's gone exactly so you

1237
00:51:48,140 --> 00:51:45,540
don't want to terrify people I suppose

1238
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:48,150
nowadays but but you do want to send a

1239
00:51:51,410 --> 00:51:49,920
very strong message you don't want to

1240
00:51:53,690 --> 00:51:51,420
terrify people partly because there's

1241
00:51:57,980 --> 00:51:53,700
nothing to be terrified of to the extent

1242
00:52:01,280 --> 00:51:57,990
that HIV genuinely is not at the

1243
00:52:03,170 --> 00:52:01,290
personal level something to be terrified

1244
00:52:05,390 --> 00:52:03,180
of I mean pregnancy is much more

1245
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:05,400
life-changing consequence of sex than

1246
00:52:11,750 --> 00:52:07,920
than HIV is these days I have three boys

1247
00:52:15,950 --> 00:52:11,760
yet you've convinced me exactly but I

1248
00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:15,960
feel that that we really have not found

1249
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:19,920
a way to make a case for for--why to

1250
00:52:25,790 --> 00:52:22,800
avoid HIV we go on telling people how to

1251
00:52:28,819 --> 00:52:25,800
avoid HIV but we haven't made a case for

1252
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:28,829
why to avoid HIV in a post AIDS world

1253
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:30,930
there is a public message problem and

1254
00:52:36,589 --> 00:52:32,880
the public message problem is is in

1255
00:52:40,250 --> 00:52:36,599
large part I think because the agenda

1256
00:52:42,410 --> 00:52:40,260
has changed so radically so quickly that

1257
00:52:45,559 --> 00:52:42,420
many of the people who are still in

1258
00:52:48,589 --> 00:52:45,569
charge of shaping the message don't

1259
00:52:51,170 --> 00:52:48,599
actually get the fact that it's changed

1260
00:52:54,020 --> 00:52:51,180
you know we're still so imbued with that

1261
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:54,030
whole HIV leads to AIDS leads to death

1262
00:52:58,099 --> 00:52:56,130
therefore it's terrible that we don't

1263
00:53:00,829 --> 00:52:58,109
get the fact that it genuinely is not

1264
00:53:03,170 --> 00:53:00,839
terrible anymore from a public point of

1265
00:53:06,620 --> 00:53:03,180
view it's terrible it's incredibly

1266
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:06,630
expensive to deal with there are huge

1267
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:09,530
risks of resistance to

1268
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:10,640
a big and that would take us right back

1269
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:13,280
to nineteen eighty-four but there's also

1270
00:53:20,890 --> 00:53:17,810
you know unpleasant consequences of

1271
00:53:24,850 --> 00:53:20,900
treatment there are issues of disclosure

1272
00:53:27,070 --> 00:53:24,860
that lead to issues of stigma does exist

1273
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:27,080
although probably not nearly as badly as

1274
00:53:32,380 --> 00:53:30,290
some of the dinosaurs believe I really

1275
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:32,390
think that we need to have a whole new

1276
00:53:37,180 --> 00:53:34,490
generation thinking about this disease

1277
00:53:38,590 --> 00:53:37,190
out with the dinosaurs so I'm going to

1278
00:53:40,630 --> 00:53:38,600
shut up about it and leave it to the new

1279
00:53:42,070 --> 00:53:40,640
generation so you consider yourself to

1280
00:53:43,690 --> 00:53:42,080
be one of the dinosaurs because you just

1281
00:53:45,790 --> 00:53:43,700
because he sounds to me like you're

1282
00:53:47,770 --> 00:53:45,800
quite an original thinker definitely the

1283
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:47,780
talk today was not the kind of thing

1284
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:49,280
that I would have expected to hear from

1285
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:51,440
a public health advocates in this area

1286
00:54:00,280 --> 00:53:56,510
so HIV transmission is hugely dependent

1287
00:54:02,740 --> 00:54:00,290
on what we call very Mia the amount of

1288
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:02,750
essentially the amount of free virus in

1289
00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:06,400
your blood and your genital fluids and

1290
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:10,310
that is something that is extremely time

1291
00:54:14,650 --> 00:54:12,890
dependent so its highest just after you

1292
00:54:16,510 --> 00:54:14,660
first become infected when you almost

1293
00:54:21,010 --> 00:54:16,520
certainly don't know you're infected and

1294
00:54:24,250 --> 00:54:21,020
probably when you're in what I'll use

1295
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:24,260
the technical term a phase so all

1296
00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:27,890
of our models of HIV transmission tend

1297
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:31,820
to be structured around averages so we

1298
00:54:36,010 --> 00:54:33,920
have an average number of partners in a

1299
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:36,020
year and we have an average number of

1300
00:54:40,060 --> 00:54:38,090
sex acts with a partner and we have an

1301
00:54:42,220 --> 00:54:40,070
average proportion of condom use in

1302
00:54:45,220 --> 00:54:42,230
those sex acts and etc but as I'm sure

1303
00:54:48,250 --> 00:54:45,230
you know our lives are not lived in

1304
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:48,260
averages our lives or lived in phases

1305
00:54:52,180 --> 00:54:49,730
and you can be in a long-term

1306
00:54:54,310 --> 00:54:52,190
relationship for a long time and then it

1307
00:54:55,900 --> 00:54:54,320
breaks up and then you go and you hit

1308
00:54:58,450 --> 00:54:55,910
the clubs and you play the field for a

1309
00:54:59,980 --> 00:54:58,460
bit and you may turn over more partners

1310
00:55:01,930 --> 00:54:59,990
in that three-month period then you have

1311
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:01,940
in the previous four years and then you

1312
00:55:06,070 --> 00:55:04,160
settle down again and then oh you have

1313
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:06,080
another phase it's in those

1314
00:55:12,070 --> 00:55:09,050
phases that you're most likely to

1315
00:55:13,900 --> 00:55:12,080
contract HIV and it's in those

1316
00:55:15,850 --> 00:55:13,910
phases that you're most likely to pass

1317
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:15,860
on HIV because you're having a large

1318
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:18,170
number of partners in a short period of

1319
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:21,170
time when you're likely to be highly

1320
00:55:25,330 --> 00:55:22,850
infectious so

1321
00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:25,340
by the time you're out of your

1322
00:55:29,710 --> 00:55:27,110
vision in your stable relationship we've

1323
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:29,720
probably your that your antibody

1324
00:55:33,370 --> 00:55:31,520
response has kicked in you've brought

1325
00:55:36,130 --> 00:55:33,380
down your viral load and you're much

1326
00:55:38,380 --> 00:55:36,140
less likely to pass it on so there's

1327
00:55:41,350 --> 00:55:38,390
much less transmission in long-term

1328
00:55:44,350 --> 00:55:41,360
stable partnerships then there is during

1329
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:44,360
the period of rapid turnover for viral

1330
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:47,690
ah gical reasons as well as for the

1331
00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:50,210
reasons of mathematical numbers of

1332
00:55:56,410 --> 00:55:53,510
partnerships so what does that mean it

1333
00:55:58,990 --> 00:55:56,420
means that HIV transmission happens in

1334
00:56:02,350 --> 00:55:59,000
settings where people are turning over

1335
00:56:05,260 --> 00:56:02,360
partners rapidly in a short space of

1336
00:56:10,230 --> 00:56:05,270
time what about abstinence abstinence

1337
00:56:13,690 --> 00:56:10,240
works very very well technically

1338
00:56:15,490 --> 00:56:13,700
unfortunately behaviorally it doesn't

1339
00:56:17,860 --> 00:56:15,500
work so well so abstinence works

1340
00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:17,870
perfectly for those that use it

1341
00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:20,960
consistently yeah ah not many of them my

1342
00:56:29,580 --> 00:56:23,950
experience that's not many of those and

1343
00:56:33,610 --> 00:56:29,590
for those that are practicing that I

1344
00:56:37,630 --> 00:56:33,620
chapeau and I'm sorry for you yeah you

1345
00:56:39,610 --> 00:56:37,640
know I I can't remember who said it but

1346
00:56:42,340 --> 00:56:39,620
there's there's a quote I really like

1347
00:56:45,310 --> 00:56:42,350
and that is that abstinence-only sex

1348
00:56:49,420 --> 00:56:45,320
education is like just holding to potty

1349
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:49,430
training sir may not may not necessarily

1350
00:56:53,830 --> 00:56:52,370
work that's that's right i mean it does

1351
00:56:55,750 --> 00:56:53,840
work technically and you should again

1352
00:56:59,260 --> 00:56:55,760
you shouldn't dis it for those for whom

1353
00:57:00,550 --> 00:56:59,270
it works great one more thing that i

1354
00:57:02,050 --> 00:57:00,560
want to go back to with rue does the

1355
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:02,060
circumcision you mentioned earlier that

1356
00:57:06,010 --> 00:57:04,640
you've had the nastiest oh i don't

1357
00:57:08,610 --> 00:57:06,020
remember that nastiest was the word he

1358
00:57:10,540 --> 00:57:08,620
used but used some word to describe the

1359
00:57:14,980 --> 00:57:10,550
emails that you got from the

1360
00:57:18,460 --> 00:57:14,990
anti-circumcision lobbyists i suppose as

1361
00:57:20,430 --> 00:57:18,470
the it's the most most extreme so can

1362
00:57:23,819 --> 00:57:20,440
you talk about that a little

1363
00:57:26,970 --> 00:57:23,829
yeah I can't even I've buried them in my

1364
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:26,980
hate mail file somewhere and but yeah

1365
00:57:36,690 --> 00:57:30,130
I've always been really interested by

1366
00:57:41,069 --> 00:57:36,700
this visceral rejection of circumcision

1367
00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:41,079
all I'm saying is here's the science the

1368
00:57:46,530 --> 00:57:43,750
science suggests that lopping off your

1369
00:57:49,530 --> 00:57:46,540
foreskin reduces the likelihood that you

1370
00:57:52,470 --> 00:57:49,540
will contract HIV by about sixty percent

1371
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:52,480
in a high prevalence heterosexual

1372
00:58:00,750 --> 00:57:57,040
setting now that's all I'm saying if you

1373
00:58:04,530 --> 00:58:00,760
believe that that is somehow advocating

1374
00:58:07,500 --> 00:58:04,540
for the mutilation of helpless babies or

1375
00:58:11,579 --> 00:58:07,510
whatever that's your problem but do i

1376
00:58:16,170 --> 00:58:11,589
I've so I now have a block on no sorg

1377
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:16,180
and and and other organizations that

1378
00:58:23,550 --> 00:58:18,730
feel strongly about this because I have

1379
00:58:25,890 --> 00:58:23,560
no axe to grind no scalpel to sharpen in

1380
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:25,900
this debate I'm just saying that that's

1381
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:27,490
what the science has no penis in this

1382
00:58:32,550 --> 00:58:29,530
game I have no penis in this game I

1383
00:58:35,010 --> 00:58:32,560
would say however as someone who doesn't

1384
00:58:37,290 --> 00:58:35,020
have a penis in this game that one of

1385
00:58:41,790 --> 00:58:37,300
the things that amuses me about the

1386
00:58:43,980 --> 00:58:41,800
circumcision debate or the screaming

1387
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:43,990
match perhaps that goes on around this

1388
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:45,730
is that one of the things you don't

1389
00:58:51,630 --> 00:58:48,450
understand but you know the it

1390
00:58:53,579 --> 00:58:51,640
circumcision reduces sensitivity for man

1391
00:58:56,430 --> 00:58:53,589
therefore you're reducing our sexual

1392
00:59:00,589 --> 00:58:56,440
pleasure etcetera etcetera now I am a

1393
00:59:04,550 --> 00:59:00,599
woman and you know women are blessed

1394
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:04,560
thank the Lord guys are always like

1395
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:08,890
people who complain about discrimination

1396
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:11,050
against women always forget this but you

1397
00:59:18,780 --> 00:59:13,930
know we get the multiple orgasms thank

1398
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:18,790
you lord so so as a woman capable of

1399
00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:21,490
multiple orgasms the fact that your

1400
00:59:26,069 --> 00:59:23,710
sensitivity is slightly reduced and

1401
00:59:30,809 --> 00:59:26,079
therefore that you're going to keep at

1402
00:59:32,180 --> 00:59:30,819
it slightly longer it's not really a

1403
00:59:36,390 --> 00:59:32,190
great problem from

1404
00:59:38,700 --> 00:59:36,400
so guys tend to think always about their

1405
00:59:40,410 --> 00:59:38,710
sexual pleasure but if any part of their

1406
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:40,420
sexual pleasure comes from delivering

1407
00:59:48,090 --> 00:59:44,410
sexual satisfaction then a slightly

1408
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:48,100
reduced sensitivity is probably no bad

1409
00:59:52,970 --> 00:59:50,170
thing now I'm not going to give you the

1410
00:59:56,010 --> 00:59:52,980
N of my study but on the whole

1411
00:59:58,890 --> 00:59:56,020
circumcised guys are generally better

1412
01:00:00,960 --> 00:59:58,900
lays than uncircumcised guys and I'm not

1413
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:00,970
very positive note we want in this

1414
01:00:18,810 --> 01:00:17,290
interview thank you very much ilysm this

1415
01:00:20,790 --> 01:00:18,820
is jay novella from the skeptics guide

1416
01:00:22,380 --> 01:00:20,800
to the universe podcast did you know

1417
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:22,390
that there are thousands of skeptical

1418
01:00:26,190 --> 01:00:24,370
reports interviews and investigations

1419
01:00:29,940 --> 01:00:26,200
going back to nineteen eighty one free

1420
01:00:32,460 --> 01:00:29,950
to download just visit w WC ethics com a

1421
01:00:33,990 --> 01:00:32,470
you click the publications link and

1422
01:00:35,820 --> 01:00:34,000
enjoy almost every back issue of the

1423
01:00:38,010 --> 01:00:35,830
skeptic the journal from Australian

1424
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:38,020
skeptics you can also subscribe online

1425
01:00:41,730 --> 01:00:39,730
and get the latest digital or hard copy

1426
01:00:44,910 --> 01:00:41,740
of this the world's second oldest

1427
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:44,920
skeptical magazine that's ww skeptics

1428
01:00:53,620 --> 01:00:47,530
comte you or just google Australian

1429
01:01:07,950 --> 01:01:03,950
you

1430
01:01:10,110 --> 01:01:07,960
zone don't forget the Australian

1431
01:01:12,030 --> 01:01:10,120
skeptics national convention is coming

1432
01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:12,040
up and you can check out all the details

1433
01:01:19,950 --> 01:01:17,950
at convention dot skeptics com au and

1434
01:01:22,830 --> 01:01:19,960
kicks off on the twenty-eighth for

1435
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:22,840
november this year 28th 29th and 30th of

1436
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:25,210
november really looking forward to that

1437
01:01:29,070 --> 01:01:26,650
we're going to have a lot of

1438
01:01:31,590 --> 01:01:29,080
international guests including the

1439
01:01:34,530 --> 01:01:31,600
skeptics guide to the universe crew

1440
01:01:36,210 --> 01:01:34,540
can't wait to see them dr. carl cruising

1441
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:36,220
iski and all sorts of other people dr.

1442
01:01:43,710 --> 01:01:39,490
Rachel be giving a talk of course and i

1443
01:01:45,380 --> 01:01:43,720
think the convention committee I think

1444
01:01:47,940 --> 01:01:45,390
the convention committee have been

1445
01:01:50,100 --> 01:01:47,950
hinting to me that they're going to be

1446
01:01:52,980 --> 01:01:50,110
announcing some more guests very soon

1447
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:52,990
that should be really exciting now our

1448
01:01:57,090 --> 01:01:54,730
good friends at the Victorian skeptics

1449
01:01:59,160 --> 01:01:57,100
have let me know that they have arranged

1450
01:02:01,080 --> 01:01:59,170
a dinner at dinner with Lawrence Krauss

1451
01:02:04,590 --> 01:02:01,090
and this is happening on the

1452
01:02:08,190 --> 01:02:04,600
twenty-ninth of August details at Vic

1453
01:02:10,290 --> 01:02:08,200
skeptics wordpress com but the blurb

1454
01:02:11,850 --> 01:02:10,300
says the Victorian skeptics are pleased

1455
01:02:15,300 --> 01:02:11,860
to announce a special event featuring

1456
01:02:18,570 --> 01:02:15,310
cosmologist Lawrence Krauss Lawrence is

1457
01:02:21,150 --> 01:02:18,580
presenting a talk entitled an update on

1458
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:21,160
cosmology and thoughts on education

1459
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:23,410
Lawrence is well known for his critical

1460
01:02:27,510 --> 01:02:26,050
thinking and promotion of science the

1461
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:27,520
dinner and talk will be held at the

1462
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:29,680
University of Melbourne graduate house

1463
01:02:35,010 --> 01:02:31,930
and they're telling me tickets are

1464
01:02:38,430 --> 01:02:35,020
already selling fast an extra special

1465
01:02:40,380 --> 01:02:38,440
event again if you're in the melbourne

1466
01:02:41,820 --> 01:02:40,390
area or if you're in Victoria you might

1467
01:02:45,210 --> 01:02:41,830
want to check this out in fact I think

1468
01:02:48,060 --> 01:02:45,220
you should Vic skeptics dot wordpress

1469
01:02:50,820 --> 01:02:48,070
com for all the details that date again

1470
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:50,830
is the 29th of August a dinner and a

1471
01:02:55,710 --> 01:02:54,130
talk with Lawrence Krauss and a little

1472
01:02:59,430 --> 01:02:55,720
update on the vaccinations chronicles

1473
01:03:01,500 --> 01:02:59,440
DVD wow it's wrong well I guess it is

1474
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:01,510
finished in a matter of speaking it's um

1475
01:03:06,630 --> 01:03:04,480
a work in progress I've put out a few

1476
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:06,640
review test copies out there for people

1477
01:03:12,260 --> 01:03:10,090
to to try on their systems to see if the

1478
01:03:14,460 --> 01:03:12,270
sound works and all the links work and

1479
01:03:17,309 --> 01:03:14,470
subtitles look about right I'm getting

1480
01:03:18,689 --> 01:03:17,319
more subtitles every week which is

1481
01:03:20,849 --> 01:03:18,699
really cool then I can just add them

1482
01:03:24,719 --> 01:03:20,859
progressively i think i'm getting

1483
01:03:26,339 --> 01:03:24,729
russian soon Oh still very interesting

1484
01:03:28,529 --> 01:03:26,349
work but as soon as that's more or less

1485
01:03:30,269 --> 01:03:28,539
ready to go out there and finish them

1486
01:03:33,089 --> 01:03:30,279
I'll let you know and then I'll just

1487
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:33,099
have to work out a way you can get a

1488
01:03:37,979 --> 01:03:36,400
copy of that DVD and when I work that

1489
01:03:40,349 --> 01:03:37,989
out it won't cost very much because

1490
01:03:43,199 --> 01:03:40,359
because the only thing I'm interested in

1491
01:03:46,199 --> 01:03:43,209
is just recouping production costs which

1492
01:03:48,509 --> 01:03:46,209
and all that fantastically big anyway

1493
01:03:50,759 --> 01:03:48,519
more news about that well hopefully next

1494
01:03:52,739 --> 01:03:50,769
week but for this week this is Richard

1495
01:03:57,839 --> 01:03:52,749
Saunders signing off from Sydney

1496
01:04:01,559 --> 01:03:57,849
Australia you've been listening to the

1497
01:04:05,249 --> 01:04:01,569
skeptic zone visit our website at www

1498
01:04:08,610 --> 01:04:05,259
skipped exhume TV for comments contacts

1499
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:08,620
and extra video reports

1500
01:04:21,250 --> 01:04:11,730
I skin